LA Business Podcast

17. Nir Eyal, Wall Street Journal Bestselling Author

Nir Eyal, Author
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Today I speak with Nir Eyal, the Wall Street Journal Bestselling Author of “Hooked” and “Indistractable”. We talk about controlling your attention and breaking bad habits to better ensure growth for your business.

Indistractable

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the LA business podcast, a forum for business owners and senior executives to share the experiences about the elements that drive their success. Your host is Robert Brill, CEO of brillmedia.co, an Inc 500 company delivering the power of hyperlocal advertising. Robert writes for Forbes, Inc and Ad trade publications, our goal is to bring you the stories about successes and failures of people who are making big things happen in marketing, entrepreneurship and management.

Robert Brill: [00:00:43] Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the LA business podcast. Today our guest is Nir Eyal author of: Indistractable. How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. The book is a Wall Street Journal Bestseller. NIR, thank you for being on the podcast with us today.

Nir Eyal: [00:01:04] My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Robert Brill: [00:01:05] Can you tell us a little bit about you and your background and how you got to write this book?

Nir Eyal: [00:01:10] Sure. So yeah, the, this second book came out of my first book. My first book was called: Hooked, How to Build Habit Forming Products. And that book came out of a class I taught at Stanford, at the graduate school of business at the design school there as well.

And uh, the first book was about how businesses can use the psychology of behavioral design. To build more engaging products and services. And so I dove into the psychology of why products like Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and Slack, and WhatsApp, why are these products so sticky? So, habit forming, so engaging.

And the idea behind that book was to democratize these techniques so that all sorts of businesses can make habit forming products. We know that it’s much less expensive to keep a customer than it is to acquire a new customer. And so, wouldn’t it be great if people used your product with the same engagement that people check a Facebook or Instagram?

What if they use your product or service in the same way? Right? What if your product was that sticky? And so the idea was if you could make a product that people use without spamming advertising, without annoying marketing messages. Products that people use out of habit, that would be amazing for your bottom line.

But of course, you know that why we can do a lot of great things with habit forming products. The downside is that sometimes products are made in such a way that sometimes we find that we overuse them and we become distracted by them. And so, if hooked was about how to build habit forming products, then in distractible is about how do we break bad habits that sometimes don’t serve us.

Robert Brill: [00:02:36] And so, you worked in the advertising business, you’ve worked at Boston Consulting Group. I saw you speak at the Inc 5,000 conference. Tell us how companies can think about scaling and growing their businesses with the ideas around control and attention. And building habits that are, you know, we talked about the gamification of user behavior.

How should companies who maybe aren’t thinking about this type of stuff even begin to get on the road to build habit forming products.

Nir Eyal: [00:03:12] So there’s two different areas there. So, one can be about how do we build habit forming products in terms of how do we make our businesses more engaging, more habit forming.

And that’s what hooked is all about. But then my, my latest book Indistractable is really speaking to the people who run these companies. You know, I believe that becoming in distractible is the skill of the century. If you can’t focus. If you can’t manage your mind, if you can’t manage your time, you don’t control your life.

And if you think the world is distracting now, just wait a few years. It’s only going to become more potentially distracting. And so, whether it’s if you want to do your best at work, whether you want to take care of your body, right? How many of us, if you’re anything like me, few years ago before I started doing this line of research, you know, day after day, I would say, Oh, I’m definitely gonna work out today. Didn’t happen. I’m definitely gonna eat right. No, I didn’t. I’m definitely going to spend quality time with my family and my friends and be really committed to being fully present with them. I’m definitely gonna work on that big project and make sure I crank out that big report so that that thing I’m working on and stop procrastinating. Yeah right.

And so that’s the big question that I try to solve with this book and Indistractable. I mean, imagine the superpower you could have if everything you said you were going to do, you actually did. Wouldn’t that be a superpower? And that’s exactly what I show people how to do in a very tech positive way. I’m not one of these people who says, Oh, get rid of your iPhone. Stop using Facebook. Go on a 30 day digital detox. Yeah, that’s almost impossible for most of us to do because we rely upon these technologies for our livelihood. So I show you in a very ProTech way how to make sure that you can control your attention and choose your life so that you can be the kind of person you want to be and have the kind of business that you know you deserve having.

Robert Brill: [00:04:47] You know, one of the things I recall from your talk on stage at the Inc 5,000 conferences was this idea that when when a person feels uncomfortable, the idea simply identifying that a person feels, that I feel uncomfortable when I want to do something that helps me acknowledge the fact that I’m actually procrastinating.

And I’m not doing the thing that I wanted to do. And as a result, just identifying the problem that I feel the way that I feel helps me understand that I, that now there’s something blocking me from doing the thing that I want to do and therefore I get to move forward with it, just by expressing the fact that it’s happening. I found that fascinating.

Nir Eyal: [00:05:34] So distraction is very tricky in many ways. That distractions goal is to fool you principally into thinking that what you’re doing is what you really want to be doing, even when in retrospect it’s not. Right. So, see if this strikes a chord, right?

You sit down at your desk and you say, okay, now I’m going to work on that big project, and now I’m not going to, I’m going to stop procrastinating. I’m going to do what I said I’m going to do. Here I go, I’m going to work on that big thing. But let me check email first. Let me just tick off that one easy thing to do on my to do list, right?

How many times has that happened? And I would argue that that is, is a more pernicious form of distraction than playing a video game or checking Facebook. Because when you’re, playing candy crush, it’s pretty obvious you’re procrastinating. But when you’re checking email as opposed to working on your business or working on that big project or doing that thing, you’ve been avoiding, that is a more pernicious form of distraction because it is making you prioritize the urgent at the expense of the important.

And if you don’t get the important stuff done, you’ll never grow your business. You’ll never be better at your job. And so, it’s absolutely critical that we call distraction what it is and understand that anything can become a distraction. Even the things that seem productive, right? I got to do email at some point, right?

Well, if that’s not what you intended to do with your time right now, then it is just as much of a distraction as playing video games. Now, what we have to do is to understand the root cause of distraction, as you hinted on that the root cause of distraction is not the external triggers. It’s not the pings, the dings, the rings, all of these things in our environment, the root cause of distraction is what we call the internal triggers.

Internal triggers are these uncomfortable emotional States that we seek to escape from. So the root cause of why we check email when we know we should be working on a big project, why we look at our phones while we’re with our kids or with our friends or with our significant other. Why we don’t go to the gym when we say we will, why we don’t do what we say we’re going to do.

The root cause of that problem is always one thing, which is an uncomfortable emotional state is the sensation that we want to escape from loneliness, fatigue, uncertainty, anxiety. Any of these things can be the reason that we keep impulsively checking our devices or any other form of distraction.

That’s the root cause of the problem. And that’s something that most people won’t tell you, right? Every book on this topic, Oh, it’s all technology’s fault. And I don’t think that’s true. Because technology is just the latest iteration. Plato was talking about distraction 2,500 years before the iPhone existed.

He was complaining about how, people don’t do what they say they’re going to do, how? Why are we so distracted? He was complaining about distraction way back then. So, technology can’t be the root cause of the problem, the root cause of the problem is always our inability to cope with these uncomfortable sensations.

Robert Brill: [00:08:18] So when I, when I know that I’m feeling uncomfortable. What should I be doing? Once I’ve identified the feeling of uncomfortableness, what should I be doing to get past that element of distraction?

Nir Eyal: [00:08:31] Yeah, so the first step to becoming Indistractable is mastering these internal triggers. So, we can do three basic things.

We can reimagine the trigger. We can view the trigger differently. We can reimagine the task, we can see the work we’re doing differently, or we can reimagine our temperament. We can see ourselves differently. And so, I walk you through systematically through the book in terms of how exactly you can implement these techniques so that when you face distraction.

It’s not something that controls you. It’s something that you control. You are mastering these internal triggers. And so, there’s all sorts of techniques that we can use. And by the way, everything in my book, you know, I can’t stand these silly self-help books where it’s, Oh, this is my personal formula for having a magical life.

You know, follow my recipe, not everything in this book is backed by peer reviewed studies. There’s 20 pages of citations. And so, what I’m doing is surfacing a lot of great research that most people haven’t heard about. And overturning a lot of research that people think is true. That turns out to be totally false.

Uh, one of the worst things you can do is believe in this myth that we call ego depletion. And even if you don’t know the term ego depletion, I’m sure you have some kind of awareness of what I’m about to say here. You know, I would succumb to this all the time. This idea that your willpower is a finite resource.

We’ve all heard this in some way, right? Don’t manage your time. manage your energy. You know, you get home at the end of the day and you feel spent and you have no more willpower. So, I used to say, okay, give me that pint of Ben and Jerry’s. I’m going to sit on the couch and watch Netflix. I’m spent, I have no more willpower left, right?

Turns out that that idea is rubbish. It’s not true. Doesn’t exist. There is no such thing as eager depletion. Even the concept of willpower. Psychologists are even questioning right now that it may not even exist at all other than in the confines of your own mind. Now, what do I mean by that? So, there were these studies around ego depletion.

And recently over the past five, 10 years now, they tried to replicate many of these studies to see was it true? Do people run out of willpower? That’s kind of the popular notion that we run out of it like gas and a gas tank. So, they did these studies and they found that it did not replicate. It does not exist except in one group of people.

The people who did succumb to eager to please and the people who really did run out of willpower like gas and a gas tank, the only people or people who believed that willpower was a limited resource. So, if you believed in ego depletion, these studies showed it affected you. But if you didn’t believe in it, it didn’t degrade your performance.

Robert Brill: [00:11:08] So what immediately comes to mind is that that moment when it’s like seven or eight o’clock end of day and I’m still working and there’s something that I don’t want to do, but I know I have to. I mean I always just figured that’s me being tired and not having the, the will the willpower mind, the mental focus to carry on and do something.

So, are you saying that there’s a way that I can push forward in that situation, or is that something different?

Nir Eyal: [00:11:36] Absolutely. So, if willpower isn’t a depletable resource, what is it? And so what psychologists tell us is actually willpower works like an emotion. That willpower is very much like, if you think about any other emotions, so you don’t say, Oh, you know what?

I was having such a great time at that party, and then I ran out of happy. No, I don’t say I was really mad at you. And then, Oh, I ran out of anger and now I’m not angry. No, that doesn’t work that way. That’s not how emotions work. Emotions crest, and then they subside. And so willpower is very much like an emotion.

It’s not about, uh, running out of it. It’s about managing it. And so that’s part of the techniques that I described in the book. It’s about how do we make sure that when we feel these uncomfortable internal triggers of fatigue, loneliness, uncertainty, stress, anxiety. When we feel those things, how do we respond in a way that leads us towards traction, things we want to do in our life versus distraction. Things that pull us away from what we really want to do.

Robert Brill: [00:12:36] That’s fascinating. So, and how are, how are business owners and executive using this to change their way of working? Like what, what are some practical tips that a person can do to take action based on the insights in the book? Obviously don’t want to give it away.

Nir Eyal: [00:12:53] That’s okay. There are so many things in the book. I’m happy to give away as much as we have time for, but one of the things that we see is very, very useful in a corporate setting. You know, it took me five years to write this book, and I interviewed hundreds of people and I did case studies in the book that you’ll, you’ll read as well around how people have various people use these techniques.

And the second step to becoming indestractable, we talked about the first step. We just touched the surface a little bit on how to master the internal triggers, that’s step one. Step two is about making time for traction, and this is particularly important in a corporate setting, making time for traction is this idea that if we don’t plan our day, somebody else will that in, you know, most organizations today, people are running around like crazy.

Doing reactive work all day long is spent reacting to stuff, reacting to emails, reacting to Slack notifications, reacting to phone calls, reacting to meetings, and they have no time for reflection. And every job is some balance of reacting and reflecting. Some jobs are more one side or the other. For example, if you work in a call center, your job is probably 100% reactive, right?

The phone rings, you pick it up, you answer the call, you take care of the customer, you put it down. That’s it. You wait for the next call. It’s 100% reactive. My guess is most people listening to me right now, the executives, the managers, your job is not 100% reactive. You need time in your day to think, don’t you?

Don’t you need time to strategize, to plan, to do the stuff that’s important. Not just the stuff that’s urgent. But here’s the question. Where the hell is that time on your calendar? And if it’s important, why don’t you keep that commitment to yourself? And the reason is that most people don’t plan their days.

And I’m not talking about a meeting here or a dentist appointment there. I mean down to the minute, you can’t afford not to do this. This is called time boxing. Thousands of studies have shown that this is one of the most effective things you can possibly do. If you find yourself struggling with distraction, if you find day after day, you don’t get done everything on your to do list. This is why. The to do list is sabotaging you. Most people don’t understand that using the to do list is making their problem worse because all a to do list does is tell you day after day, Hey, loser, you still didn’t finish everything in your day. Right? That’s a horrible feeling every day going through your life and saying, I said I was going to do these things and I didn’t get them done day after day after day.

You’re doing nothing but reinforcing your identity of being incapable of living with personal integrity. What you need to do instead of keeping it to do list is to plan your time by using what’s called a timebox calendar, and I’ll give you a link in the show notes. I made a tool. You don’t have to sign up for anything.

It’s completely free. I don’t need your email, nothing. Anybody can use it. What you want to do is to plan every minute of your day, so that you can see the difference between what is traction, anything on your calendar and what is distraction. Anything that is not on your calendar. Because here’s the thing.

You can’t call something a distraction unless you know what it distracted you from. If you have a bunch of white space on your calendar, your work isn’t going to magically get done. You’re going to putz around. You’re going to check emails, Slack channels. You’re going to call more meetings. You’re going to check ESPN.

You’re not going to do the things you said you were going to do. Now, I don’t have any problem with checking ESPN. I don’t have any problem with looking at Facebook or Netflix or whatever you want to do, but do it on your schedule, not on the app makers. By planning your day. Then what we want to do is to do what’s called a schedule sync, and if you don’t do this, this will change your life.

A schedule sync is when we take our timebox calendar and we share it with the stakeholders in our life, whether that’s at home with our significant other, whether that’s with our boss, sitting down for 15 minutes a week and saying, Hey, here’s my week ahead. Here’s how I plan to spend my time. Here’s what I’m working on.

Here over here on this other piece of paper boss is the things I won’t have time for. Okay. Based on the schedule I’m showing you right now, if there’s anything that you think I should reprioritize, tell me. Right? Help me do that. We all hear this trope that if we want to stay focused, you have to say no.

Right? We’ve all heard this advice a million times. Nobody fricking does it. How do you look at your boss in the eye? The person who pays you and you say, nah, can’t do that for you. It’s very hard to do. Instead, you shouldn’t be the one who says no. Let your boss be the one who says no. The only way they can do that for you is if you take your calendar to your boss.

Having done this exercise, I want you to do, make this time box calendar and I’ll show you exactly how to do it in the link. I’ll give you the show notes. Take that to your boss, sit down for 15 minutes. He or she will worship the ground you walk on because most managers have no idea what the heck you’re doing with your time.

And if you are the manager, this is something you can do with your employees that will revolutionize their happiness, their productivity, and your peace of mind. It’s an essential practice.

Robert Brill: [00:17:49] So it’s interesting being deliberate about how you’re going to, how a person spends their time.

And I, have to say that I definitely check my calendar in the morning or the night before, like especially on Sundays, but usually most of the week I’ll check my calendar for what I have going on in the next day. And, if I don’t have an early morning meeting, I’ll sleep later. And if I would have put time on the calendar, uh, to work on my website or work on specific sales tactics, etc, it would create a more deliberate view of how I spend my day.

Exactly. To your point, the other thing I’m looking at, the notes I took from the speech I heard you give that two points have self-compassion. Don’t shame yourself or blame yourself. I think I heard that as well.

Nir Eyal: [00:18:37] Yeah, so there’s, there’s two types of people when it comes to how people deal with distraction.

I called them the blamers and the shamers. So the blamers are the people who blame stuff outside themselves. It’s Facebook’s fault. It’s the iPhone, it’s Instagram, it’s the modern world doing it to me, all that stuff is causing distraction stuff outside of them. Then you have what’s called the shamers.

The shamers, they don’t blame stuff outside themselves. They blame stuff in themselves, right? They say, Oh man, maybe I’m not very good at this job. Or you see, look, maybe I’m lazy, or I have a short attention span. There must be something wrong with me. They shame themselves, and of course that makes things worse because the worse we feel, the more likely we are to look for more distraction.

So being a blamer doesn’t work because you can’t fix those things. You’re not going to go fix Facebook. They’re not going to stop making distracting content. You’re not going to, you know, take ESPN off the air or you’re not going to stop Donald Trump from tweeting. You can’t do anything about that stuff.

So why blame them? You can’t shame yourself because that makes the problem worse too. You just feel worse. You’re going to be more likely to get distracted. So, what do you do. You don’t be a blamer, you don’t be a shame, or you become what’s called a claimer, a claim or claims responsibility for their actions.

It’s not your fault that the world is so distracting. You didn’t invent the iPhone. You didn’t invent email. You didn’t invent all this interesting content on YouTube. You didn’t invent that stuff. It’s not your fault. But it is your responsibility. And so, while we can’t control what we feel, we can control our response, which is where the word responsibility comes from, too those uncomfortable sensations. And that’s exactly what I teach you how to do.

Robert Brill: [00:20:16] One of the interesting components of these ideas, and this is something that was very relevant in October when I heard you speak is that there’s a different, you call it a, you said text messages have a larger urgency coefficient. Emails are slower. And this was something we were grappling with internally. Like when is the right time to use Slack? When is the right time to use email, when is the right time to use texts? And as the Chief Executive of my organization, I really make it difficult on my team especially our Chief Operating Officer to reach out to me in the sense that like sometimes I’m on Slack, sometimes I’m on email, sometimes I’m on text, and after hearing you talk, I realize it’s like they have to jump around through three or four different places to figure out where I am at any given time.

Especially considering that we all work remotely. Like you never really know where people are and I totally felt that. It resonated to me that the text messages have a larger urgency coefficient. And I noticed that when there’s urgent things happening, it’s usually a text message that I respond to quickest.

And also, my clients, when something is critical happening, the best way for us to communicate with each other is via text. Even though longer form conversations, are probably better done over the phone, frankly, but then you don’t have a text record of it. Fascinating stuff that I didn’t even realize what’s happening until you like put a label on it.

Nir Eyal: [00:21:51] Yeah, yeah. And the idea here is to use the right tool for the, for the job, right to you. You can, use a screwdriver to bash in a nail, but wouldn’t it be better to use a hammer instead? It’s built for that job. And so what you really want to do is to figure out, know what’s the, what’s the medium someone uses when something is actually bonafide, urgent, and if that’s text messages or phone calls, great. That tends to be the right medium. If something is truly urgent. Even then I recommend folks put their phone into do not disturb while driving mode, it comes standard with every iPhone. I think it’s on every Android device as well.

Do not disturb while driving works like this. So, when you’re doing focused work, and I want you to plan that time, right? If you need time to concentrate, which pretty much everybody listening to the sound of my voice needs that time to think in their day or else you’re just reacting to stuff all day long.

You’re just running around like crazy. If you have that reflective time in your day, protect that time. Use something like a do not disturb functionality that comes built in with your phone. And what that will do is, if you’re in that focus work time and somebody sends you a message, then they will get an automatic reply that says, I can’t talk right now, but if this is urgent, text me the word urgent.

And then if it really is urgent, they’ll text you that word. Then the message will come through. Okay. So, there’s, you know, the part of the solution to tech distraction is more tech, ironically enough. But you know, these tools that, unfortunately, a lot of people don’t know exists or don’t take the time to use.

All the solutions are there. And so, what I really want people to do is to stop boohooing about how distracting technology is and actually use the very same technology to help them overcome these problems. It’s about using them in a way that serves us as opposed to letting us serve the technology.

Robert Brill: [00:23:36] So, what I heard is number one, and in no particular order, if I want to be better and more deliberate about my time and productivity is number one to claim responsibility for the time that I’m spending working on specific tasks. Number two, schedule out on my calendar when I’m going to be dedicated to working on specific things. Number three, use the appropriate medium, a communications medium for the situation. Is there anything else that we talked about that I think that would be a good wrap up here.

Nir Eyal: [00:24:13] Yeah. I mean, just to clarify, the, the most important thing is to master the internal triggers. The internal triggers that discomfort of why you get distracted and none of the other techniques will work if fundamentally you’re not dealing with, why can’t I sit at the table with my family without wanting to check my phone every five minutes?

Like what is going on inside me? That makes me want to escape this way, right? Why can’t I work on this project at work without constantly needing to check Slack and email? What’s really going on in my head? That’s the first place to start. That’s how we start re-imagining those internal triggers and deal with the discomfort. That always drives us to distraction. That has to be the first step. The second step is making time for traction’s about planning your day in a way that you get more traction as opposed to distraction. The third step is to hack back the external triggers, not just when it comes to our notifications.

What about meetings? Right. Meetings tend to be a gigantic distraction. I tell you exactly how to hack back meetings. Email, I can show you how to reduce the time you spend on email by up to 90% right? Most people do not know how to manage email. They’re flooded in it and they can’t get control over it.

I’ll fix that problem for you by, by hacking back these external triggers, The open floor plan office. Oh my God. That is the number one source of external triggers for the average American knowledge worker. When they do surveys, 80% of people who work in an open floor plan office say that the number one source of distraction, it’s not their phones, not their computers, not the telephone. It is other people. And so, I tell you exactly how to hack back the distraction that comes from that person who taps you on the shoulder and says, Hey, you want to hear this bit of office gossip? Or let me just talk to you for 10 minutes. It’s never just 10 minutes. So, I’d tell you how to hack back those distractions.

And then finally, the last step as the fail-safe, the backstop to distraction is to prevent distraction with pacts. And pacts are these pre-commitments, these contracts that we make so to speak. With ourselves or with other people that make sure that after we’ve done, these three other steps, that when distraction attempts us, we have some kind of backstop and we use these different packs to make sure we don’t do something we later regret.

Robert Brill: [00:26:19] Hmm. And I remember, so two things. Number one, the open office floor plan, I found it difficult to concentrate in that environment because I was constantly hearing other people’s conversations. And likewise, I would be talking louder because there’s so much noise and people would be hearing my conversations.

What I love about working from home is that first of all, I don’t get to do things on my own terms, but I don’t have that immense amount of distraction I have my office and I have my screens and I have doors and, and I don’t get distracted. And I actually find almost to a detriment that my team and I, we almost work like noticeably, substantially harder because there’s are no interruptions.

Nir Eyal: [00:27:10] I would say there’s probably no interruption there. If you were looking for interruptions, right.

Robert Brill: [00:27:15] Human interruptions.

Nir Eyal: [00:27:16] Right. Right. But you probably have other problems, right? So, I work from home as well. I have other people who live with me, right?

I have my wife, I have my daughter. Those people at certain times can be distractions as well. Right? So, I love my daughter to death. I love my wife to death, but it’s certain times when I’m doing focused work. How do you send a signal to people you live with it? Well, I need to do focus work right now. Please don’t distract me. So, there’s other distractions, not to mention all the distractions. Even if you do work from home, that can come from your digital devices. Right? Those things can also be huge.

Robert Brill: [00:27:46] Massive.

Nir Eyal: [00:27:47] Yeah.

Robert Brill: [00:27:48] So Nir last question. I’m a big foodie. I love really great food. What kind of good food, like what’s your favorite type of thing to eat, whether it’s you cook at home or a place you like to go out and eat.

Nir Eyal: [00:28:00] So, I live in New York city and there is no shortage of good food here. Let’s see, where do we start? You know I’m a big fan of really good Chinese food and really good Chinese food tends to be the places that, that you need to know about, right? Somebody needs to show you is a really great place.

And typically the dirtier you know, the messier it is, the better the food tastes. So, I’m a big fan of, of authentic, Chinese American cooking.

Robert Brill: [00:28:28] Very good. Nir give us a links that you were mentioning and how do people connect with you?

Nir Eyal: [00:28:34] Yeah, so my blog is nirandfar.com but near a spell, like my first name, so that’s NIR and far.com.

And if you want more information on the book, it’s: Indistractable, How to Control Your attention and Choose Your Life. If you go to indestractable.com there’s actually an 80 page complimentary workbook that we didn’t fit into the final draft of the print edition, so you can get that free at indestructable.com if you do end up buying the book, make sure you keep your order number, whether you buy it on Amazon or wherever you get it from, keep your order number, enter it on that website, and you’ll get access to a free video course that will take you through the book in another multimedia fashion. So make sure you check that out at indestractable.com.

Robert Brill: [00:29:13] Awesome. NIR, thank you so much for being a guest. I greatly appreciate it.

Nir Eyal: [00:29:17] My pleasure. Thank you. Bye.

Robert Brill: [00:29:19] Thank you for listening to this episode of the LA business podcast. If you like what we’re doing on this podcast, please consider subscribing on Apple or Google play. Leaving a five-star review and sharing with your friends.

If you have any questions, comments, or recommendations for a guest you’d like to hear on this podcast, please email me, [email protected]

Thank you. Have a fantastic day.

 

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Credits

Audio Production – Echegoyen Productions

Creation and Marketing – BrillMedia.co, a hyperlocal advertising company.